Steam Workshop paid content

[Sogo]

Hey everyone, I know you guys probably aren't as into TES/Fallout modding/mods as I am, but you've probably seen the new "Paid workshop content" popup on steam,  but it stands to hurt the modding communities in these games, with no ability to trial or test these mods with your load order, there stands a good chance that users will not notice bugs until the 24 hour refund period is up, among other issues.

I'd really appreciate it if you guys could sign this petition for valve to remove it, or at least change it to a system where you can donate to mod authors instead.

https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-th...m-workshop

[FlyingMongoose]

I honestly wholly support paid Steam Workshop content. I believe these people who spent this time and effort should be reimbursed for said time and effort.

That means I can not support wholly removing it. I can support a revision to include a longer "trial period" though.

This can potentially become a career for some of these people, by wholly removing it to me that is removing food from mouths.

[CaffeinePowered]

I honestly wholly support paid Steam Workshop content. I believe these people who spent this time and effort should be reimbursed for said time and effort.

That means I can not support wholly removing it. I can support a revision to include a longer "trial period" though.

This can potentially become a career for some of these people, by wholly removing it to me that is removing food from mouths.

I think this is a terrible idea and a bad precedent, there is not really much quality control on mods (and there shouldn't be). Modding is and always should be free, your reward for making a mod apart from the satisfaction are lines on your resume. There's so many things to consider with a boat load of mods, especially when things don't work together properly (had that happen many times in bethesda games)

People who have made great mods go onto get actual dev jobs doing other things, the most they should set up is a donation box.

[Nitrous Oxide]

I honestly wholly support paid Steam Workshop content. I believe these people who spent this time and effort should be reimbursed for said time and effort.

Aye, wanna toss me a few bucks for all the time and effort I spend making music? b)

I thought modding was a hobby, not a career.

by wholly removing it to me that is removing food from mouths.

Yeah, because people have been counting on their mods bringing home the bacon for quite some time now.

[Sogo]

[quote author=FlyingMongoose link=topic=7502.msg284579#msg284579 date=1429853745]
I honestly wholly support paid Steam Workshop content. I believe these people who spent this time and effort should be reimbursed for said time and effort.

Aye, wanna toss me a few bucks for all the time and effort I spend making music? b)

I thought modding was a hobby, not a career.

by wholly removing it to me that is removing food from mouths.

Yeah, because people have been counting on their mods bringing home the bacon for quite some time now.
[/quote]

Exactly, modding for most is a hobby, however, a few prominent modders have already taken advantage of this in the worst possible way. In particular is Isoku's mod Wet and Cold.
He had been talking up and promoting the newest version for a few weeks prior to the paid content announcement, many people were excited, only to find out that this current version is ONLY available on the steam workshop for five dollars, with a note that older versions are still free, but will no longer be supported, when they were expecting to simply be able to download it through the nexus mod manager client. This touches on a few issues here.

1) pretty much every fan of his work was blindsided by this, he gave no explanation behind this decision, didn't talk with to community about it beforehand, and has not said A SINGLE WORD about this on the nexus. This has caused a lot of anger on his mods pages.

2)he is now effectively holding other mods that rely on wet and cold hostage, this is more specific to this particular example, since he has many plugins for this mod, quite a few of these I enjoy, and since he is no longer supporting the "free" version, soon enough you will need to pay to use these.

3) many mods, this one included rely a huge amount on SKSE, the skyrim script extender. This is a framework mod provided entirely free by the team that makes it, and opens up many possibilities for scripting outside of vanilla TES/Fallout games, as well as providing a huge scrip library, greatly reducing mod conflicts. Needless to say, Wet and Cold could not possibly function without SKSE, but here Isoku is effectively profiting off of that team's script work while they get nothing.

4) steam workshop is clunky as hell, only functioning via a system that tells it what mods to dump into the data folder. This means that whatever the last mod installed was takes precedent for overwrites. Without any kind of advanced or even manual install, we see conflicts arise, and problems for people like me, who like to tweak things to their liking.

[CaffeinePowered]

[quote author=Nitrous Oxide link=topic=7502.msg284581#msg284581 date=1429883846]
[quote author=FlyingMongoose link=topic=7502.msg284579#msg284579 date=1429853745]
I honestly wholly support paid Steam Workshop content. I believe these people who spent this time and effort should be reimbursed for said time and effort.

Aye, wanna toss me a few bucks for all the time and effort I spend making music? b)

I thought modding was a hobby, not a career.

by wholly removing it to me that is removing food from mouths.

Yeah, because people have been counting on their mods bringing home the bacon for quite some time now.
[/quote]

3) many mods, this one included rely a huge amount on SKSE, the skyrim script extender. This is a framework mod provided entirely free by the team that makes it, and opens up many possibilities for scripting outside of vanilla TES/Fallout games, as well as providing a huge scrip library, greatly reducing mod conflicts. Needless to say, Wet and Cold could not possibly function without SKSE, but here Isoku is effectively profiting off of that team's script work while they get nothing.
[/quote]

That is also a hugely important point, a lot of mods build on each other.


Also for Mongoose - Imagine if say, sourcemod cost money, how would that affect the server community?

Sourcemod - now a $5 monthly fee!

[Nitrous Oxide]

In particular is Isoku's mod Wet and Cold.

And this is where I'm a fan of the Robin Hood approach.

Oh, you want to fuck us all over? How about we just steal this shit instead? b)

[Surf314]

I believe that based on copyright law the way steam is doing it is pretty much the only way modders can legally get paid for their work.  So I think if the modding community needs money to grow then this is a good decision, if it doesn't then maybe it isn't.

[FlyingMongoose]

Does anyone else remember the fiasco of map makers (3-6 months 8-hour days testing, developing, modeling, brushwork, texturing, etc) getting their maps added as DLC to TF2 (while TF2 was still a paid product) and they didn't get a dime, while hat makers made (and still make) a killing on microtransactions for selling their hats (and many of those map makers still haven't seen a dime).

Because I remember that.

This to me is a step in the RIGHT direction to help support the mod development community. Also PC Gamer just published an article that some paid mods have ALREADY BEEN PULLED because they use other party's mods in their own.

You also have to remember, as Surf314 pointed out there is legal matters here, the pay wall method may be the only way to get a W-2 or W-9 (because it can be considered "contract work" for a third party), whereas Donations in many countries REQUIRE a registered non-profit (which also means a boatload of tax bullshit that is a lot more annoying to deal with than W-2s or W-9s... at least in the states), we actually ran into this issue with Stargate: The Last Stand (because we had quite a few donors), then because a company started backing it we almost got in trouble with the taxman in the netherlands, so a new non-profit was founded so it'd be a lot less of a headache.

Also, not everyone who builds these mods ends up with employment at the end of the day, many of these rely on certain script implementations which are NOT commonplace in high level games development (seriously LUA is probably the worst game scripting language out there, it's slow, clunky, and unreliable in everything I've ever played that uses it). That being the case they are NOT getting experience in applicable programming languages (and sometimes when modding existing games there's absolutely no map editing tools and you're just slapping things into the already existing environment, so there's no real 'level design' experience being gained either)), in many of the instances the idea is that they're just telling a story within the existing universe, which is "general game design" which good luck finding employment in that, it's an oversaturated field that pretty much every studio already has because the game designer is almost always the founder anyway.

Again, I can not wholly support completely removing paid workshop content. I support it when implemented the right way. And while the margin percentages aren't the greatest on Steam, honestly, this is the best option for reimbursement of work for many.

[Squishy3]

Gabe did an AMA about it today

https://www.reddit.com/user/GabeNewellBe.../comments/

all his comments there

[StolenToast]

I agree with goose on this one, I think the people who are crying that the modding community has been killed are overreacting.  I see this as yet even more doors being broken down for the indie development community, and really I think they are targeting the wrong audience. 

You should not have to pay for a mod that adds just a little content to a game like Skyrim, but what about a game like Black Mesa?  They released their game entirely for free, partly because they wanted to, and partly because it was the only way they could, since the game is literally Half Life.  I remember the game took FOREVER to release, and it became a joke about how it was over two years past the expected release date, and they even made a joke rival project called Balck Meas: Sauce that was going to release first.  I think that team DESERVED to be paid for their efforts, and honestly I would have paid like $5 for Black Mesa.  I imagine there are lots of teams like that, who don't have the resources to learn how to develop a "real" game, even with something easy like Unreal.  But modding a whole new story into something like Skyrim means you don't need to know much coding, and possibly any modeling or texturing either. 

I disagree that it should be removed, but I think the target crowd should be these people who want to make entire games within existing moddables. 

Also I just want to point out that Desura has been operating on this model for several years already and it seems to have worked out...

[Sogo]

Does anyone else remember the fiasco of map makers (3-6 months 8-hour days testing, developing, modeling, brushwork, texturing, etc) getting their maps added as DLC to TF2 (while TF2 was still a paid product) and they didn't get a dime, while hat makers made (and still make) a killing on microtransactions for selling their hats (and many of those map makers still haven't seen a dime).

Because I remember that.

This to me is a step in the RIGHT direction to help support the mod development community. Also PC Gamer just published an article that some paid mods have ALREADY BEEN PULLED because they use other party's mods in their own.

You also have to remember, as Surf314 pointed out there is legal matters here, the pay wall method may be the only way to get a W-2 or W-9 (because it can be considered "contract work" for a third party), whereas Donations in many countries REQUIRE a registered non-profit (which also means a boatload of tax bullshit that is a lot more annoying to deal with than W-2s or W-9s... at least in the states), we actually ran into this issue with Stargate: The Last Stand (because we had quite a few donors), then because a company started backing it we almost got in trouble with the taxman in the netherlands, so a new non-profit was founded so it'd be a lot less of a headache.

Also, not everyone who builds these mods ends up with employment at the end of the day, many of these rely on certain script implementations which are NOT commonplace in high level games development (seriously LUA is probably the worst game scripting language out there, it's slow, clunky, and unreliable in everything I've ever played that uses it). That being the case they are NOT getting experience in applicable programming languages (and sometimes when modding existing games there's absolutely no map editing tools and you're just slapping things into the already existing environment, so there's no real 'level design' experience being gained either)), in many of the instances the idea is that they're just telling a story within the existing universe, which is "general game design" which good luck finding employment in that, it's an oversaturated field that pretty much every studio already has because the game designer is almost always the founder anyway.

Again, I can not wholly support completely removing paid workshop content. I support it when implemented the right way. And while the margin percentages aren't the greatest on Steam, honestly, this is the best option for reimbursement of work for many.

I've never looked into the TF2 maps thing, and if they weren't asked, its pretty shitty, anyways, onto my main argument here.

This in no way helps the modders or community, it's pretty much ANOTHER cash grab by Valve. They've become increasingly adept at getting people to give them money, and now make money FOR them, all the while making it sound like they're helping them. It very well likely started with those community maps, someone realized "hey wait a second, people love these maps, and we didn't have to put in any work." After awhile, the first set of player created items were added to TF2, half a year later, the Mann Co store opened, where you could shell out real money for virtual hats and weapons. Soon, a great majority of the items added to TF2 weren't even created by Valve. Players made these items, submitted them to Valve, who then popped them into the game if they got popular enough. Sure, these items dropped and could be crafted normally, but you could also buy them from the MCS, giving some money to the creators, after Valve took their cut of course.

This is about where we started to see actual updates drop off, sure, we got a couple of new game modes, but one required you to pay Valve to play it. I believe this is where Valve realized that they were making money hand over fist off of other's work, and being praised for it. Even now, TF2, DOTA, and CS:GO have items and skins created by the community that sell for forty, fifty, sometimes even hundreds of dollars between players, found in randomly dropped crates that you pay to open. App games may have invented the microtransaction, but Valve has honed it to a razor edge. Eventually, Valve came up with early access and Greenlight, both of which turned out to have the upside that anyone could start their own game, and sell it as early access to gain funds for further development. Unfortunately, ANYONE could submit their game, and these developers aren't held to any schedule, quality control, or even standards. The most notable of these in my opinion was Starbound, a game that opened preorders in April of 2013, promising a release later that year. Two years later, Starbound is still incomplete, after several month long "Hiatuses" and the developers actually releasing OTHER complete games during the span, all the while refusing refunds to (understandably) angry players.  

And of course like the MCS, Valve gets their slice of the pie from every Early Access game that sells, whether or not the creators deliver the promised, or even a completed end product.
With the precedent Valve has set with these actions, I really cant trust them when they say something is to "Help players/modders/mapmakers" because the only ones they seem to be helping are themselves. Hopefully the backlash they are recieving from this is enough to snap them out of this. [spoiler]<tinfoilhat>Or who knows? Maybe Episode 3 is just about done? Or has been done, and been saved for a time when Valve could use a popularity boost?</tinfoilhat>[/spoiler]

All in all, from the Mann co store supplanting actual content in TF2, to the endless shovelware on Early Access, to "helping" modders with 25% of the profits from the paid workshop, this whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. It seems to me that Valve is using their good reputation from Steam sales and the like to cover for some seriously shady shit.

[Reevesith]

Reading about this here & there, I get this type of feeling from valve.

[Eightball]

I got kinda pissed off reading that reddit thread, people are really blowing the fuck up about an ancillary/optional service as if the modding community is so fragile as to crumble like a chinese skyscraper the moment someone even suggests the idea. Yeah the workshop will get shat the fuck up full of bad mods trying to cash in but it's already full of garbage

I'm confident a few months from now this will have had just about no impact on 99% of users. What's-his-face what shit up other people by making his mod paid will see people switch to an alternate and the bulk of hobbyist modders will continue to release for free.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Nitrous Oxide]

Realistically, this would be a great implementation if they changed the "Pay What The Modder Wants" to be a true "Pay What You Want" including $0.00 (like BandCamp). No way I'm going to spend 30 cents for one single sword in Skyrim... but some mods like Wet & Cold, I wouldn't mind ponying up a couple bucks since they actually add something fairly significant to the game.

>$30 for the complete package
>Literally $22.50 going straight to Valve/Bethesda

Tell me again how this benefits the modding community primarily... b)

[Sogo]

I guess I should bring up another potential issue that's come to my attention.
Due to Valve/Bethesda's 75% cut, this system favors modders who produce a high volume of small mods. Realistically, noone can make a useful overhaul or good quest in a week, however,it is much more reasonable bang out a decent looking sword, helmet, shield, or outfit once a week and sell it for 1-2 bucks. This means that this system, perhaps unintentionally, champions player made microtransactions over DLC, and the starting lineup reflects that. Of the 16 item starting lineup, only one mod appears to be original ACTUAL content created for the workshop, the other 15 consist of three mods "Updated" for the paid workshop, and twelve armors or swords, some of which appear ported from other games and/or lazily implemented (improper inventory models, not placed in the world/leveled lists, not craftable, not improvable).

[Dr. Zaius]

I got kinda pissed off reading that reddit thread, people are really blowing the fuck up about an ancillary/optional service as if the modding community is so fragile as to crumble like a chinese skyscraper the moment someone even suggests the idea. Yeah the workshop will get shat the fuck up full of bad mods trying to cash in but it's already full of garbage

I'm confident a few months from now this will have had just about no impact on 99% of users. What's-his-face what shit up other people by making his mod paid will see people switch to an alternate and the bulk of hobbyist modders will continue to release for free.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Hey, I'm driving the "fuck reddit" bandwagon.

[Sogo]

We won guys, the paid workshop has been removed!

[Squishy3]

noooo, my $100 horse penis mod

[CaffeinePowered]

We won guys, the paid workshop has been removed!

Just Bethesda (was that the only one atm?) gotta make sure it doesn't come back, ever


Also this post sums it up nicely, I really should have thought of something like this, economically speaking