Proposal: Engineer limits on some maps

[KarthXLR]

[quote author=Honest link=topic=2251.msg64375#msg64375 date=1233442943]
[quote author=Eschatos link=topic=2251.msg64368#msg64368 date=1233442584]
I say no way.  As restrictions are imposed the game becomes less fun.  There should never be class limits at any time.  If you have problems with engis, go spy or get an uber.  End of story.

You kind of missed the point. Spy becomes worthless with 3-4 engis, and you need to coordinate ubers to take out that many and even then 1 counteruber or pyro with airblast or stupid teammate will cock that up. The game becomes less fun to me when you alienate certain classes (I.e anything that isn't a medic, demo, or soldier). But yet again, this isn't really for every map since a lot of them are designed to hurt more than help if you play Sentry farm 2. Just stuff like CTF, imo.
[/quote]You don't need to coordinate ubers. if you actually bother to coordinate team members you need just one. Medic runs out front like he should, absorbs fire. All of the team that's not on guard duty rushes in after. Sentries no longer prove a threat.
[/quote]
You seem to forget that 60% of TF2's community has the brain made of potatoes.

[Spore]

No limits. Engies on the other team? Use two ubers at once. Moving on, there is also almost always an angle for demos to shoot a sentry. Also, engie limits make whole team mega engie offense rushes impossible, and those are awesome.

[KarthXLR]

No limits. Engies on the other team? Use two ubers at once. Moving on, there is also almost always an angle for demos to shoot a sentry. Also, engie limits make whole team mega engie offense rushes impossible, and those are awesome to piss the other team off and make the pubs raaaaaaaage.

Fixed

[JoKeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]

either have no limits at all or limit all classes to 2/3

Also Karths right about something for once

[Radio Raheem]

the issue isnt even the strength of a SG. its the fact that building 3-4 takes no coordination at all and you just hold mouse 1 while crouching. killed 3-4 takes teamwork and you wont find that in a public server.

[Benito Mussolini]

the issue isnt even the strength of a SG. its the fact that building 3-4 takes no coordination at all and you just hold mouse 1 while crouching. killed 3-4 takes teamwork and you wont find that in a public server.

Unless you teamstack as you always do.

[copulatingduck]

The problem is that sentry farms take little to no coordination to sustain, while breaking a sentry farm takes a great deal more coordination. I don't play on the servers nearly as much as I used to, but it's been a [u]very long time since I've seen a team actually break a 4-5 engy defense if there is even 1 combo helping to protect the forward-most sentry.

imo:

They're only a problem on CTF and Dustbowl/Goldrush imo. Three on Mach4 is killer, Four on Dustbowl/Goldrush is killer, limits at 2/3 on those maps would be good.

[Dave]

you are all pussies, i play pretty much exclusively scout and i can take one sentry out of a nest, you can edge theese bastards, and ofcourse you cant really kill them all solo, but your not meant to be able to take on sentries on your own unless your a demo, the pub nest engis nearlly allways stick their shit on a corner, sticky behind it/just infront of it and you can take em out easy  in my mind the nest spots in 2fort are the spirals courtyard and the intel room, the first can be avoided in most cases, and the second is a very tight knit room, an ubered pyro or heavy can clear that shit quite easily. In dustbowl, the first stage has two obvious sentry nests, both are very accessable to a demo with stickies for the first hut, and pipes to artillery strike the corner facing the last CP. the second stage first point nest seems to mainly be on or around the point, with sometimes some sentries on the corner opposite the hut, again get a heavy inside the hut by jumping through the window and come up the stairs, you can take out anything inside the hut without an uuber and then you can get onto the point without being in range of the other sentries on the corner, once you take the point your dipshit team mates will bumrush the corner sentry and it probably wont last long. point 2 of stage two is allways going to be a sentry clusterfuck, the two points you should be attacking from are the rocks on the far left of the point (from the attackers perspective) where you can easily artilelry pipe the shit from there with minimal team mate cover so you dont get scout/soldire fucked, and an ubered heavy/pyro coming from the 'valley' leading directly to the point, dont bother dropping down from the right sinc a sentry farm will just give you a team rocket style exit. if you are suppressed by snipers then use the tunnel on the right to go around the rear of the building, and walk down the stairs on the left, you need to uber just as you get to the corner and let your medic take a fucktton of fire, once you clear the sentries, your job should be to watch the spawn, there is no point having your heavy/pyro stood on the point with the medic, its an easily assaultable place with no cover at the spawn and you will get bumrushed fast, your medic/ any other retard pubs that caught up with you will be capping the point, you need to stand at the spawn and fuck people over. the last stage cap one has 2 deffinate sentry spots and one cleverer one, there will allways be a sentry on the shelf, one on the right next to the stairs, and sometimes one sentry on the left of the building infront of the point, to get through here you only really need to take out the one on the left, preferably using a demo plopping stickies through the slit windows in the building, you can easily wipe a whole farm and a lot of players this way, then to cap the point you either roll scout/soldier/demo and rocket/sticky jump to the point, half the team wont give a shit and will try to get more kills out of your spawn, and you can sticky/rocketspam the enterence on the left for shits and giggles, for a scout, you need the sentry on the right stairs to be down really, but you can still try to get to the point, you have to hug the wall of the left building and run up the stairs on the left, you will get hit by the shelf sentry, butyou wont die, then simply double jump to the point to cap it. as a soldier, demo you can take out the other two sentry spots pretty easily, allthough an uber can clear the stairs sentry and possably the shelf easily, with the demo and the solly you can get up on the building facing the point and snipe the rest of the sentries, as a pyro you can usually edge the stairs sentry, then you need to wait for some dumbfuck to run out into the sentries line of fire and run under it, where you can easily kill it. with the second stage you can again pretty much snipe everything they will have witha  demo/soldier/sniper, simply get into the building on the right and use the gangway on the right to snipe anything, you will probably get attacked up there but that is the point of the game, dont be a pussy.


fuck goldrush.
fuck spellcheck.

[x]

you are all pussies, i play pretty much exclusively scout and i can take one sentry out of a nest, you can edge theese bastards, and ofcourse you cant really kill them all solo, but your not meant to be able to take on sentries on your own unless your a demo, the pub nest engis nearlly allways stick their shit on a corner, sticky behind it/just infront of it and you can take em out easy  in my mind the nest spots in 2fort are the spirals courtyard and the intel room, the first can be avoided in most cases, and the second is a very tight knit room, an ubered pyro or heavy can clear that shit quite easily. In dustbowl, the first stage has two obvious sentry nests, both are very accessable to a demo with stickies for the first hut, and pipes to artillery strike the corner facing the last CP. the second stage first point nest seems to mainly be on or around the point, with sometimes some sentries on the corner opposite the hut, again get a heavy inside the hut by jumping through the window and come up the stairs, you can take out anything inside the hut without an uuber and then you can get onto the point without being in range of the other sentries on the corner, once you take the point your dipshit team mates will bumrush the corner sentry and it probably wont last long. point 2 of stage two is allways going to be a sentry clusterfuck, the two points you should be attacking from are the rocks on the far left of the point (from the attackers perspective) where you can easily artilelry pipe the shit from there with minimal team mate cover so you dont get scout/soldire fucked, and an ubered heavy/pyro coming from the 'valley' leading directly to the point, dont bother dropping down from the right sinc a sentry farm will just give you a team rocket style exit. if you are suppressed by snipers then use the tunnel on the right to go around the rear of the building, and walk down the stairs on the left, you need to uber just as you get to the corner and let your medic take a fucktton of fire, once you clear the sentries, your job should be to watch the spawn, there is no point having your heavy/pyro stood on the point with the medic, its an easily assaultable place with no cover at the spawn and you will get bumrushed fast, your medic/ any other retard pubs that caught up with you will be capping the point, you need to stand at the spawn and fuck people over. the last stage cap one has 2 deffinate sentry spots and one cleverer one, there will allways be a sentry on the shelf, one on the right next to the stairs, and sometimes one sentry on the left of the building infront of the point, to get through here you only really need to take out the one on the left, preferably using a demo plopping stickies through the slit windows in the building, you can easily wipe a whole farm and a lot of players this way, then to cap the point you either roll scout/soldier/demo and rocket/sticky jump to the point, half the team wont give a shit and will try to get more kills out of your spawn, and you can sticky/rocketspam the enterence on the left for shits and giggles, for a scout, you need the sentry on the right stairs to be down really, but you can still try to get to the point, you have to hug the wall of the left building and run up the stairs on the left, you will get hit by the shelf sentry, butyou wont die, then simply double jump to the point to cap it. as a soldier, demo you can take out the other two sentry spots pretty easily, allthough an uber can clear the stairs sentry and possably the shelf easily, with the demo and the solly you can get up on the building facing the point and snipe the rest of the sentries, as a pyro you can usually edge the stairs sentry, then you need to wait for some dumbfuck to run out into the sentries line of fire and run under it, where you can easily kill it. with the second stage you can again pretty much snipe everything they will have witha  demo/soldier/sniper, simply get into the building on the right and use the gangway on the right to snipe anything, you will probably get attacked up there but that is the point of the game, dont be a pussy.

My class doesn't take skill. I played a mage first for three years, and having goofed around with this warlock I realized just how many terrible players there were out there, hiding behind the super class that I'm posting on now. Hunters are almost as bad. And other classes are so borked that their skill doesn't really factor in anyway. the idea that you're asking for an explanation for all the hate and discontent on this forum, while insisting that said hate and discontent does not bleed into this thread, strikes me as rather silly, but I'll briefly humor you on this one. Bear in mind, I'm going to use opinion words here, but until there is hard fact explaining why people complain, all we can provide is reasonable speculation. -Lhivera, Muphrid, and Arazan pushed and fought against the coefficient nerf for quite a while, displaying tables of numbers displaying where casting classes stood in various respects, if they were permitted to cast in their most favorable conditions. Chain-casting, assuming the same damage, hit, and crit, mages fell behind warlocks, even if both were specced to the hilt for optimal nuking. the issue of aoe damage came up in these conversations, so mages were analyzed against warlocks in terms of aoe spells. Again, mages fell behind by comparison, thanks to the development of one single spell. Seed of Corruption by far outperforms the supposed kings of aoe, and at the end of it, they have the luxury of restoring their spent mana without spending consumables to do so. falling behind in these ways tends to leave mages a little miffed, but some don't care much for pve encounters anyway. At least mages are better at pvp, right? -The face of pvp has changed with the expansion and the introduction of arenas. Gear grants boatloads of health and resilience mitigates critical strike chance and critical strike damage at the same time. All but two classes pvp based on direct damage, possible critically-striking, spells and attacks. Of these, two are the least affected, as their damage stems from a source that is not permanently exhausted. I speak of rage and energy. Druids can be counted as an oddball third, if they're feral. the classes that have a mana dependency for their damage were hurt by this, some to greater extents than others. Softening the blow of limited mana over longer fights involves either a significant source of direct damage that doesn't rely on mana, such as shots and pet attacks or melee orientation, or class features that enable the caster to regain significant amounts of mana. Innervate is excellent for this. Evocation is iffy, as it opens up a valuable school to interruption...and it also requires standing still, doing nothing while being channeled. The priest's trained summon is a handy little mana battery when it gets used. enter the warlock, with effectively unlimited mana. Life tap (dangerous in pvp, granted), followed by drain life, is an excellent tool for regaining mana, health, or both, especially coupled with possibly the best long-duration self buff in the game. the other major change to the face of pvp is the dreaded pillar-hump. Classes that derive most of their damage from standing still and casting were hurt by the abundance of pillars in the existing arenas. Where a warlock or a priest have only to pop out for a half-second while mashing their dot key of choice, mages, hunters, elemental shaman, and balance druids find themselves a little hard-up for dishing out their damage. To keep up, druids have moonfire and insect swarm and healing spells, hunters have melee pets that follow their targets around the pillars and traps they can lay to slow or freeze their opponents, and shaman have earthbind and grounding totems (and heals, of course). mages have blink, which is a depressing and buggy mana hog, and water elemental if talented, which unfortunately relies on bolt-style casting. The ranged freeze is certainly handy, I'll grant, but the long cooldown of the elemental itself forces judicious use. in this aspect of the game, mages are finding themselves playing Little Brother to warlocks again. "You had your turn, now it's ours!" some warlocks will cry. What they forget is that when warlocks weren't wanted much for raids back at sixty, they still wreaked havoc in pvp. Currently falling behind another class in two major aspects of the game is irritating and somewhat mind-boggling. The kick between the legs? a healer in pvp gear is nigh impossible to kill as a mage. But wait, there's more. -Itemization, set bonuses, talent trees, buggy or simply poorly-designed spells, and buff-to-nerf ratio all point in a disturbing direction. Either Blizzard, more specifically the folks that run things from the top, doesn't know where it wants the mage as a class to go, or it doesn't care about the discontented players as long as they keep paying and playing, or it's biased in favor of certain classes, or it doesn't even understand how the class operates. compare the T6 sets to our bigger brother, as one of the relatively recent examples of disparity between awesome and just plain asinine. For two pieces, they get a bonus that grants 70 healing for every tick of Corruption and Immolate, and this healing is amplified by Fel Armor. The mage set for two pieces will grant one extra tick from Evocation. It's a bonus that comes into play once every eight minutes. Stretched over eight minutes, a mage will regain an additional 15% of his mana bar if he gets the luxury of standing still for a ten-second evocation. Over that same eight minutes, assuming only Corruption or Immolate is being used, assuming untalented Fel Armor, the warlock gains 13440 health to convert into mana, which is leaps and bounds greater than 15% of a mage's mana bar can ever hope to achieve. there's also the matter of this unseemly waste of gear value on spirit. Unless you raid in Mage Armor, or you have enough points in Arcane to get that passive regeneration, spirit means effectively nothing to a mage. I will grant that T6 is quite possibly more than I will ever see. These factors certainly aren't encouraging. playing With Fire. +1/2/3% fire damage dealt at a cost of receiving more spell damage when it is taken. backlash. +1/2/3% critical strike chance. On being hit, you just might receive an instant-cast nuke. empowered Fireball. +3/6/9/12/15% of your bonus spell damage is applied to your Fireball. shadow and Flame. +4/8/12/16/20% of your bonus fire damage is applied to your Incinerate, and +4/8/12/16/20% of your bonus shadow damage is applied to your Shadowbolt. More damge is applied to two spells. -That's just the tip of the iceberg, but I can already tell that the TLDR crowd has already rolled their eyes posted their little four-letter quip. I suppose the last thing I'll touch on is the sense of mockery that seems to pervade the gaming crowd. People will demand hundreds of gold for the books that teach the highest-level food and water spells, feeling at the same time they are entitled to the food and water that a mage conjures up. the refreshment table didn't improve matters. The idea that its distant cousin requires a reagent as well is hardly relevent. One shard for ten stones is better than one shard for one stone. The warlock gets the stone he wanted, and nine other people get the benefit of their own."I had to kill a mob for that soul shard though!" It's not like the monster suddenly became unlootable after having its soul drained... but hey. Some would rather accept what they're told."Mages are fine, l2p." No. They are not. They're not necessarily the worst off, but they certainly are not fine. Mine is growing mold in his armpits. Occasionally he sees the light of a daily quest. This warlock, though...he's beyond fine. Hasn't been 70 more than a couple of weeks, and I've never had it easier.

[Blues]

I didn't read this thread, because it was created by Gump, who starts screaming about engis breaking pubs as soon as he gets shot once by a sentry he blindly stumbled into.

No limits, spend more time stepping up and coordinating your team and less time complaining about sentries. Go spy, check out all the placements, go demo, find a medic, uber, ????, PROFIT!

[copulatingduck]

...stop complaining about engy spam your all pussys...

Dave supports class limits, there, thats the end of that problem.

[JoKeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]

People are forgetting that a team with 3 or 4 engineers still has other classes, and that those class's roles become much easier with sentries backing them up. When the other team is 100% occupied by sentries it's just free kills.



Either that or blu really sucked I just wanted an excuse to post that ss

[copulatingduck]

People are forgetting that a team with 3 or 4 engineers still has other classes, and that those class's roles become much easier with sentries backing them up. When the other team is 100% occupied by sentries it's just free kills.



Either that or blu really sucked I just wanted an excuse to post that ss

your resolution sucks :p

[dapngwnman]

No.

Why so much arguing over an easy answer?

[Honest]

No.

Why so much arguing over an easy answer?

Because if I play one more game of Mach 4 where I cap 2 intels in a row, only to have the entire game shut down for a good 20 minutes because of Turtle Fortress 2, I am going to go to find where every engi on the other team lives and punch them in the head.

Don't care about CP or Payload maps, those maps are wide enough for an uber to actually be useful.

If you aren't annoyed by Engi spam on Mach 4/2 Fort then you're probably the one engi spamming and / or hiding in your base for 20 minutes, making absolutely no effort to come back and win the game. This is not fun.

[Master Shake]

a single spy can you usually sap the sentries and take the intel out of the sentry range at least.

[CaffeinePowered]

I think the only ones I would support would be something like

2fort - 3
Mach4 - 2
Goldrush/Dbowl - 4

Nobody likes turtle fortress 2, but then again, no one likes having shitty engineers either, both slots on mach4 taken up, but you never have guns up because your hardhats can't properly dispense erections.

[[fr31ns]Karrde]

Nobody likes turtle fortress 2, but then again, no one likes having shitty engineers either, both slots on mach4 taken up, but you never have guns up because your hardhats can't properly dispense erections.

Exactly my point.  So many maps, you're just fucked if you can't get an SG up in a useful spot immediately.  You're just going to lose the intel once to a scout.  And the other offensive classes aren't likely to stay back and guard it.

[KarthXLR]

People are forgetting that a team with 3 or 4 engineers still has other classes, and that those class's roles become much easier with sentries backing them up. When the other team is 100% occupied by sentries it's just free kills.



Either that or blu really sucked I just wanted an excuse to post that ss

You do realize we were winning though, right?

*even though I swore we were going to lose on part 2 and 3*

[copulatingduck]

[quote author=JoKeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR link=topic=2251.msg64446#msg64446 date=1233502923]
People are forgetting that a team with 3 or 4 engineers still has other classes, and that those class's roles become much easier with sentries backing them up. When the other team is 100% occupied by sentries it's just free kills.



Either that or blu really sucked I just wanted an excuse to post that ss

You do realize we were winning though, right?
[/quote]

No, you're really not. Only REALLY terrible/stacked teams don't cap at least 4 points on Dustbowl. And 11 minutes for 3 points is horrid.