Plugin Proposal - Disabling Sandman

[CaffeinePowered]

A coder has developed a plugin that forces players to use the normal bat instead of the sandman, it can be viewed here.


The question I pose to the community is, do you want this on the server(s)?


I know this a somewhat sensitive and hot topic, so please, keep flames to a minimum and discuss ONLY the sandman. You may change your vote at any time, but no one may see the voting results until the poll expires on Sunday morning. Based on the discussion that takes place here we may implement it on one, all, or none of the servers.


If you are looking for an example of this plugin in action, the TF2F servers currently have the weapon disabled. And just so everyone is clear, this plugin FORCES the normal bat, there is no way to get any of the sandman related achievements when this is enabled. Some players were talking about a plugin to either remove or limit the stun effect, this plugin does not exist and may not be possible, so please keep any discussion geared only toward the pros/cons of the plugin I have linked in the beginning of this post.


And just to be clear, keep this thread clean, meaningless posts and flames will be deleted.

[Surf314]

I vote yes on one server no on the others, which I'm marking as yes.  I think #1 would be the best for disabling.  This is a good example of why we have several servers with several different objectives in playing style/seriousness.

[KarthXLR]

I vote yes on one server no on the others, which I'm marking as yes.  I think #1 would be the best for disabling.  This is a good example of why we have several servers with several different objectives in playing style/seriousness.

yep. No sandman might run some pubs out on #3.

[copulatingduck]

Just to point out, The Sandman is only disabled on TF2F's 16-slot servers, #1 and #4 (ie Pro like Chro and Insane like Train)

---

I don't think it's necessarily even different playstyles. In my experience, anyone who is playing and at least trying to complete an objective (ie capture a point, uber through a sentry farm, etc) gets inredibly frustrated by the stun from The Sandman. It takes almost no skill whatsoever to use and in nearly every situation will guarantee a kill if you manage to stun someone with it.

I vote yes that it should be removed from #1 and #3 should we decide to keep that server, it just tends to frustrate players extremely quickly and (especially in groups) is the stuff griefing is made of.

[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=2486.msg71197#msg71197 date=1236865936]
I vote yes on one server no on the others, which I'm marking as yes.  I think #1 would be the best for disabling.  This is a good example of why we have several servers with several different objectives in playing style/seriousness.

yep. No sandman might run some pubs out on #3.
[/quote]

If someone is honestly so bothered by not being able to use The Sandman that they won't play on the server, they're most likely someone who just wants to spam baseballs. That makes them incredibly useless to their team and incredibly annoying to the other team. I would consider that detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game, I just don't think we need that in our servers.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to just spam baseballs and annoy the fuck out of people once in a while, even I understand that it can be a lot of fun. I just think that particular kind of "fun" should be limited to server #2.

[ScottyGrayskull]

I don't think it's necessarily even different playstyles. In my experience, anyone who is playing and at least trying to complete an objective (ie capture a point, uber through a sentry farm, etc) gets inredibly frustrated by the stun from The Sandman. It takes almost no skill whatsoever to use and in nearly every situation will guarantee a kill if you manage to stun someone with it.

I vote yes that it should be removed from #1 and #3 should we decide to keep that server, it just tends to frustrate players extremely quickly and (especially in groups) is the stuff griefing is made of.

That's the big thing with me, it's just so frustrating to be taken out of the game while you're still a viable target, even if just for a few seconds. It's just so much against the nature of the rest of the game.

[WTF Joel]

The scout doesn't need the ability to stop anything he comes up against, especially ubers. Teamwork is what this is about, and I feel that the sandman is not only annoying, but is over powered, and kind of goes against the original goal of teamwork of the game. That's about as nice as I can put it. I vote yes. :3

[Radio Raheem]

[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=2486.msg71197#msg71197 date=1236865936]
I vote yes on one server no on the others, which I'm marking as yes.  I think #1 would be the best for disabling.  This is a good example of why we have several servers with several different objectives in playing style/seriousness.

yep. No sandman might run some pubs out on #3.
[/quote]

3 would be considered the more serious server due to stock maps (aside from 24/7 retardation) so i dont think banning sandman would be an issue there.

[Honest]

[quote author=Ye Salty Karth link=topic=2486.msg71198#msg71198 date=1236866420]
[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=2486.msg71197#msg71197 date=1236865936]
I vote yes on one server no on the others, which I'm marking as yes.  I think #1 would be the best for disabling.  This is a good example of why we have several servers with several different objectives in playing style/seriousness.

yep. No sandman might run some pubs out on #3.
[/quote]

3 would be considered the more serious server due to stock maps (aside from 24/7 retardation) so i dont think banning sandman would be an issue there.
[/quote]

This. It gets a little disappointing to see Scouts walk around with the bat as their main weapon, admittedly I did this to achievement whore and to rage Radio but good times were had by all then. Ban it on 3 and I'm sure we'll see the normal 0-1 scout per team again, which is all right with me.

[CaffeinePowered]

[quote author=Surf314 link=topic=2486.msg71197#msg71197 date=1236865936]
I vote yes on one server no on the others, which I'm marking as yes.  I think #1 would be the best for disabling.  This is a good example of why we have several servers with several different objectives in playing style/seriousness.

yep. No sandman might run some pubs out on #3.
[/quote]

I don't think it will run pubs out, generally people said the same thing about class limits and #3 has the same limits that #1 has and Ive not seen or heard of anyone quitting out when they discover there's a limit on a particular class.

That being said, despite losing the double jump, the sandman is still ridiculous, longer range stunning seems to be alright, and generally Ive found that after stunning someone at a distance, I either can't close fast enough or other people around the player kill you. Its the point blank and then quick switch to the FaN or Scatter Gun that is really what is bad. At close range its rather hard to miss and it stuns long enough for you to kill any class.

That and stopping ubers is just broken, I'll make an exception to the airblast because the pyro is vulnerable to being killed by the uber or those around it and basically has to do it point blank. A mid range bonk can last several seconds and eat most of the uber while the scout is in little/no danger.

[at0m]

If someone is honestly so bothered by not being able to use The Sandman that they won't play on the server, they're most likely someone who just wants to spam baseballs. That makes them incredibly useless to their team and incredibly annoying to the other team. I would consider that detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game, I just don't think we need that in our servers.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to just spam baseballs and annoy the fuck out of people once in a while, even I understand that it can be a lot of fun. I just think that particular kind of "fun" should be limited to server #2.

This.

I still voted no though, because despite Caff's very valid points about its potency at close range, I think for the most part its a phase. The backburner caused a LOT of rage when it first came out, and now I don't even see most people using it. I believe the same will hold true for the Sandman.

[cannedpeahes]

Did you even read the post peaches, you know, that bold underlined part?

Please stay on topic

- Caff

Sorry, was on my way out the door for a biology lab. Didn't read all the way through it.

I voted "yes". If you've never played a heavy while Sandman's been in circulation, you don't know the pure fury of getting an uber, only to get juggled by a pyro for half of it and stunned by a baseball for the rest.

[Luinbariel]

[quote author=CopulatingDuck link=topic=2486.msg71200#msg71200 date=1236866844]
If someone is honestly so bothered by not being able to use The Sandman that they won't play on the server, they're most likely someone who just wants to spam baseballs. That makes them incredibly useless to their team and incredibly annoying to the other team. I would consider that detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game, I just don't think we need that in our servers.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to just spam baseballs and annoy the fuck out of people once in a while, even I understand that it can be a lot of fun. I just think that particular kind of "fun" should be limited to server #2.

This.

I still voted no though, because despite Caff's very valid points about its potency at close range, I think for the most part its a phase. The backburner caused a LOT of rage when it first came out, and now I don't even see most people using it. I believe the same will hold true for the Sandman.
[/quote]

I also agree.

I generally believe that a game should be left as it is for the most part; you don't have to love it or even like it, but things such as the Sandman are another part of the game and that they should stay.

[Blues]

[quote author=at0m link=topic=2486.msg71225#msg71225 date=1236877754]
[quote author=CopulatingDuck link=topic=2486.msg71200#msg71200 date=1236866844]
If someone is honestly so bothered by not being able to use The Sandman that they won't play on the server, they're most likely someone who just wants to spam baseballs. That makes them incredibly useless to their team and incredibly annoying to the other team. I would consider that detrimental to everyone's enjoyment of the game, I just don't think we need that in our servers.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to just spam baseballs and annoy the fuck out of people once in a while, even I understand that it can be a lot of fun. I just think that particular kind of "fun" should be limited to server #2.

This.

I still voted no though, because despite Caff's very valid points about its potency at close range, I think for the most part its a phase. The backburner caused a LOT of rage when it first came out, and now I don't even see most people using it. I believe the same will hold true for the Sandman.
[/quote]

I also agree.

I generally believe that a game should be left as it is for the most part; you don't have to love it or even like it, but things such as the Sandman are another part of the game and that they should stay.
[/quote]
A part of the game, and a part of the game that will soon be changed due to public outcry are two different things. The rage about backburner was the +50hp on a kamikaze class, not the crits which were the actual kept benefit (and anyone who DID cry about that is a gigantic pussy who needs to learn to turn around more often.)

I vote yes on at least one server, the bat is a ridiculous piece of ass that as stated through this thread basically destroys the whole point of the game's teamwork, for either team.

[CaffeinePowered]

A part of the game, and a part of the game that will soon be changed due to public outcry are two different things.

Actually on this, my friend who usually plays CSS and L4D generally doesn't like TF2 much, and thinks spies ruin the game, not the recent backstab changes, just spies in general. Disliking something that's brand new and was likely largely untested by valve is something entirely different than something that has been an established part of the game since release.

[copulatingduck]

A part of the game, and a part of the game that will soon be changed due to public outcry are two different things. The rage about backburner was the +50hp on a kamikaze class, not the crits which were the actual kept benefit (and anyone who DID cry about that is a gigantic pussy who needs to learn to turn around more often.)

I vote yes on at least one server, the bat is a ridiculous piece of ass that as stated through this thread basically destroys the whole point of the game's teamwork, for either team.

You forgot the part where they effectively quadrupled the damage of the flamethrower. Pre-pyro-update flamer dropped off to 25% at the tip. Post-pyro-update there was no falloff, the tip of the flamer did as much damage as if the pyro was right on top of you. Post-pyro-nerf the dropoff was reintroduced with damage dropping off to 50% at the tip (so pyro now does about twice the damage he did when TF2 launched)

[SAVAGE-0]

well I'll go ahead and say no because I love pissing people off by using it and that IS fun to me... that being said I have no problem with you guys not liking it enough and taking it off server 1.  

however server 2 is "fun" maps and is not to be take seriously so I can't see any reason to ban it there.

also server 3 you call "Stock" ... IE what valve gave us... IE no banning anything.  

Just my 2 cents

edit: just a thought... what if it made you stunned but invincible... therefor stopping motion and slowing the other team to allow the scout's quick get-away but unable to kill.

[Maxon]

I think it should just be kept as is for right now.  It's gonna be nerfed eventually, because I don't think rage on this level for something in TF2 has been this bad, so it's bound to get a time stun drop or tweak (wind up time or maybe remove the uber stopping power or hopefully a revamp (I liked the idea of slowdown with concussion).

[Lode]

Honestly, I see the sandman as a tool to get assists.

Here is one scenario.
On 2fort, you have a RED scout with the intel, coming from BLU Battlements. On the BLU battlements is a BLU scout with the Sandman and a BLU sniper.  BLU Scout paralyzes the RED Scout, allowing the BLU sniper to send the RED Scout's Grey matter towards RED base.

Here's another!

We all know that the 2nd point on stage 2 of Dustbowl is a bitch when there are a fuckload of Engies.  
Let's say, RED Team's got 2 engies, both with Lvl 3 sentrys and dispensers.  They also have a heavy with Natascha on Spy-checking duty, as the RED engies have contracted tunnel vision and are busy humping their turrets. BLU team's got 2 scouts, both with the Sandman. Also, BLU has a Spy, waiting to strike.   BLU Scouts paralyze the Heavy and one of the Engies, This leaves the BLU Spy to do what Spies do best.

[at0m]

Honestly, I see the sandman as a tool to get assists.

Here is one scenario.
On 2fort, you have a RED scout with the intel, coming from BLU Battlements. On the BLU battlements is a BLU scout with the Sandman and a BLU sniper.  BLU Scout paralyzes the RED Scout, allowing the BLU sniper to send the RED Scout's Grey matter towards RED base.

Here's another!

We all know that the 2nd point on stage 2 of Dustbowl is a bitch when there are a fuckload of Engies.  
Let's say, RED Team's got 2 engies, both with Lvl 3 sentrys and dispensers.  They also have a heavy with Natascha on Spy-checking duty, as the RED engies have contracted tunnel vision and are busy humping their turrets. BLU team's got 2 scouts, both with the Sandman. Also, BLU has a Spy, waiting to strike.   BLU Scouts paralyze the Heavy and one of the Engies, This leaves the BLU Spy to do what Spies do best.

I actually did something similar to this at TFT, I stunned Caff's medic (he was heavy, and holding our entire team at a chokepoint) then ran over and killed him with the FoN while Caff proceeded to murder me with the Natascha. But with his medic down, he died shortly thereafter and my team then started making progress again.

<3

[JoKeRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR]

Get with the times and ban Bonk!. That shit's overpowered.