Can we replace it with the previous version? This is more than my usual map hate being that I can easily support it. I don't know what the author was thinking. If they wanted to do something different, perhaps a new map woulda been a better idea. In this case, the changes did not fix the major problem with freight, that being jammed into the final point and having difficulty pushing back. The changes have effectively opened the second CPs up a lot, however, only from the side facing the central CP, making it even easier to take the point. The changes also make the second point much more SG friendly for the pushing team, making it even harder to get out of being buried. All in all, my summation is that the changes effectively dumb down the map, making it less comp oriented, and making it easier for poorly skilled teams to hold the second point. Freight used to be among my favorites. These changes really ruin the map in my opinion. For your trouble, have a picture of a shocked spy being kissed by a pyro:
![[Image: sexypyrospy.jpg]](http://www.esforces.com/~karrde/sexypyrospy.jpg)
"Help, I've been shot! Hey...What are you doing, Dr. NOOOOOOooooooo!"
I agree with Karrde 100% on this one.
Changes to mid: The author reintroduced the expanded rooftop on either side of the CP. As it stood before, only a complete idiot would even bother with that higher ground because there was such little room to maneuver that only a complete idiot couldn't kill you with splash up there. Â Change for the better.
Changes to second: They reworked the side opposite of defending team's forward resup. It's a much more direct line into the CP and much less choked. This prevents people falling back from getting bounced away from the tiny door while running away and dying. Change for the better.
Furthermore, defenders have a few windows looking out on the entrance from a shack, along with the health pack. The attacking team has no direct path to you. Defense all around on this side was buffed, and it definitely needed it.
On forward resup side: They removed the forward resup. Thank god. Previously demos to that resup were like flies to a fresh turd. A demo could single-handedly lock down the right side by whoring the resupply cabinet while stickying the door. It was pretty lame, I'm really glad they removed it. This side is now pretty much the only way to access second-floor on CP2 while attacking. Now teams have the choice to either push resup side and go for higher-ground advantage, or push opposite side and avoid choke-point clusterfucks. It's an interesting choice, and I'm glad the creator introduced it.
Changes to last: Sniper got a significant buff on last. The bridge giving defending side access to the sniper roost was removed, but to keep sniper in check some corrugated-steel panels were added for cover. There's now 4 entrances between 1-2, it offers defenders a lot of flanking opportunities while pushing out of 1 and it gives the attackers a few more choices on how much spam they want to eat pushing last. Previously it was "eat shit" and "more shit." Now it's "eat shit / more shit / Even more shit / no shit"
As far as I can tell, the only thing these changes have done is reduce the clusterfuck at chokes between points. Winning and losing based on spam isn't just dumb, it's completely skill-less. I'm glad the author was pro-active about reducing the failmates, the map is a lot more dynamic now. That being said, spam is pretty much why Goldrush and Dustbowl are such crap (and popular) so I guess I can see why some people wouldn't be happy with the changes.
I'd have to say, in all honesty, it's probably your team's fault you can't push back from your last point moreso than the map. Getting bumped back to last on any push map means you're on the losing team so it takes coordination to push back, but I'm sure those 3 people who changed to Engineer aren't going to cripple any ambitions you had of actually winning.
Turtle fortress 2, etc.
(06-04-2009, 11:39 AM)CopulatingDuck link Wrote: [ -> ]stuff spam
You're a spam, shut up.
I'm going to let this debate go on for a bit before making any decisions, for the time being I'll leave it on the new version
(06-04-2009, 11:52 AM)Pokemon Trainer Blues link Wrote: [ -> ][quote author=CopulatingDuck link=topic=3020.msg88162#msg88162 date=1244133572]
stuff spam
Tacticstacticstacticstacticstacticstactics
[/quote]
(06-04-2009, 11:39 AM)CopulatingDuck link Wrote: [ -> ]As far as I can tell, the only thing these changes have done is reduce the clusterfuck at chokes between points. Winning and losing based on spam isn't just dumb, it's completely skill-less. I'm glad the author was pro-active about reducing the failmates, the map is a lot more dynamic now. That being said, spam is pretty much why Goldrush and Dustbowl are such crap (and popular) so I guess I can see why some people wouldn't be happy with the changes.
The big question is... have the underwater areas around mid been left relatively intact?
I have a cheevo to get honestly people (Krazy Ivan), and I aim to get it!
during TFT we had a lot of fun playing it and yeah...
(06-04-2009, 01:24 PM)ScottyGrayskull link Wrote: [ -> ][quote author=CopulatingDuck link=topic=3020.msg88162#msg88162 date=1244133572]
As far as I can tell, the only thing these changes have done is reduce the clusterfuck at chokes between points. Winning and losing based on spam isn't just dumb, it's completely skill-less. I'm glad the author was pro-active about reducing the failmates, the map is a lot more dynamic now. That being said, spam is pretty much why Goldrush and Dustbowl are such crap (and popular) so I guess I can see why some people wouldn't be happy with the changes.
The big question is... have the underwater areas around mid been left relatively intact?
I have a cheevo to get honestly people (Krazy Ivan), and I aim to get it!
[/quote]
I should make an underwater level for it....
(06-04-2009, 01:37 PM)Caffeine link Wrote: [ -> ][quote author=ScottyGrayskull link=topic=3020.msg88185#msg88185 date=1244139876]
[quote author=CopulatingDuck link=topic=3020.msg88162#msg88162 date=1244133572]
As far as I can tell, the only thing these changes have done is reduce the clusterfuck at chokes between points. Winning and losing based on spam isn't just dumb, it's completely skill-less. I'm glad the author was pro-active about reducing the failmates, the map is a lot more dynamic now. That being said, spam is pretty much why Goldrush and Dustbowl are such crap (and popular) so I guess I can see why some people wouldn't be happy with the changes.
The big question is... have the underwater areas around mid been left relatively intact?
I have a cheevo to get honestly people (Krazy Ivan), and I aim to get it!
[/quote]
I should make an underwater level for it....
[/quote]
Base it on the underwater levels of mario! Lots of swiftwater.
Uh nope, it's fine now. I don't know where you get the idea it's EASIER for the attacking team to setup a sentry when the only place they can put it is now on the same level as defense trying to push back. And the last point is easier to defend with two spots for covered sentries now. Sounds to me like the teams you're on just suck and don't know how to push out from a point.
I'll give that it is a bit easier to assault the second point coming in now, but tbh I think that's still a problem with the spawn timers being too long when one team rolls the first point more than anything else.
new version seems a lot better competitively. i hated the map before and last night it was almost fun. mid still sucks really hard for soldier though.
take that for what its worth
I really wish he just made the two maps seperatley. The new one doesn't bode well with me.
(06-04-2009, 05:58 PM)Pokemon Trainer Blues link Wrote: [ -> ]ITT:
Tactics.
To me, I think the last couple points on the new version are only harder to take if your team acts individually. With tactics, it's still easily doable. In fact, there aren't that many places to put sentries that that aren't vulnerable to soldiers and engies, assuming you don't rush in. Even if half the defenders are engies, all it would take is a couple of spies, an uber or two, and good teamwork and communication to take the win.
(06-04-2009, 08:52 PM)Kenny Strife link Wrote: [ -> ]Team Fortress 2
(06-04-2009, 08:52 PM)Kenny Strife link Wrote: [ -> ]To me, I think the last couple points on the new version are only harder to take if your team acts individually. With tactics, it's still easily doable. In fact, there aren't that many places to put sentries that that aren't vulnerable to soldiers and engies, assuming you don't rush in. Even if half the defenders are engies, all it would take is a couple of spies, an uber or two, and good teamwork and communication to take the win.
(06-04-2009, 09:47 PM)zaneyard link Wrote: [ -> ][quote author=Kenny Strife link=topic=3020.msg88339#msg88339 date=1244166758]
Tactics Fortress 2
[/quote]