Be Right Back, Uninstalling

thanks to everyone who has tested cp_heaven_b3a. Just in case you got any feedback on it, please post here. Its still work in progress so im very intrested in your opinion.

Several of us found the ducts on the final push to be kinda useless once the other team saw we were there.  Also on the final point, those little "dips" where you have stairs going down, then immediately up, kinda mess things up.  It seems to serve as a collector for demo spam and lets the defenders get the first look on the attackers.  In general, I found the points a bit hard to attack/easy to defend.  I don't think Red had a single SG that round and we had to fight tooth and nail for everything.  Oh and B and C seem to have defenders getting the high ground on the attackers from about 3 different directions, which really makes attacking a bitch.  I think if they'd stacked 2-3 engineers around, we would have had a hell of a time of winning.

thanks for the feedback.
well..both B,C and D got height advantage spots for attackers. Only difference is that those on D are harder to keep as red have quite easy access there. Still the idea of the upper route (with vents) on D is to counter SGs and give a route for ubers.
about stairs going up\down: this one are here to prevent sniper spam, as otherwise that corridor is kinda long, but ill think of changes here.

I think that A needs an alternate route and spawn exit, was a good 3 - 4 min of solid spam before the other team managed to push through. The map overall is quite difficult on attackers, not to the point of being impossible, but I think at the very least they could stand to have their respawn wave time set a bit low, no one likes sitting out 15+ seconds attacking.

I kept getting stuck in spawn doors.

I think the first 3 points are fine.  I think the reason we weren't so great at attcking B and C was we had 1/2 the team going to each... granted that splits their defenses, but as on gravel pit, one big push is what you need to break a decent defense. 

As for the last point, I think the distance is fine for attackers, but I think if red is going to be able to spam the hallways like they do the cap time should be extremely fast (last point of gpit, badlands etc.)  They have way too much advantage even with the new access points which are nice.  The "dips" as mentioned below create an impossible passage for heavies, sniper and scouts, what with spamming pipes and rockets, you can't even get a shot off till you're up the stairs and by then they've had aim at your face for a few seconds.

Other than that last point, I really like it.  Just think of most of the valve maps - the final point is in the open to a long hall or a large room which opens from many angles.  yours is more like an M where the point is the middle of the M and the attackers have to run forward then back - we never quite get a long distance view of the point.

I also should have said overall I liked it.  It needs some work, but I thought it was good.  I don't say that about very many maps

hm..A got atleast 3 exits, 2 upper (ok,we can consider em as one) and lower that leads to water. There is also a window in blu spawn that is there to prevent sniper\demo spam by red.

About stucking in doors-tell me where and ill fix

About 15sec respawn for attackers..thats actually very very wierd, as BluRespawnWave is never more than 6-16 seconds, but thats only on point A. After point A spawns should be shorter. When B/C are not capped spawnwave is 3-6 seconds, After B or C is caped spawnwave is 5-10 seconds. And when only D is left its the shortest 2-4seconds.

Also,mind that ive implemented special system that prevents rush-capture by attackers, so map should play slowly in terms of blu advancing. Point D has 6 seconds capture time,same as Gpit one, and has up to 20 seconds spawn time for red. The one thing ive noticed is that attackers need an engineer, as teleporter to that balcony with the window is really a credit to team

about side routes near D, I'll think of changing them so it will be easiers to push there.

Overall,thanks alot for the feedback

And ofc, if there is anyone else i would rly appreciate more feedback

(03-17-2010, 01:27 PM)Hellfire link Wrote: [ -> ]hm..A got atleast 3 exits, 2 upper (ok,we can consider em as one) and lower that leads to water. There is also a window in blu spawn that is there to prevent sniper\demo spam by red.

About stucking in doors-tell me where and ill fix

About 15sec respawn for attackers..thats actually very very wierd, as BluRespawnWave is never more than 6-16 seconds, but thats only on point A. After point A spawns should be shorter. When B/C are not capped spawnwave is 3-6 seconds, After B or C is caped spawnwave is 5-10 seconds. And when only D is left its the shortest 2-4seconds.

Also,mind that ive implemented special system that prevents rush-capture by attackers, so map should play slowly in terms of blu advancing. Point D has 6 seconds capture time,same as Gpit one, and has up to 20 seconds spawn time for red. The one thing ive noticed is that attackers need an engineer, as teleporter to that balcony with the window is really a credit to team

about side routes near D, I'll think of changing them so it will be easiers to push there.

Overall,thanks alot for the feedback

And ofc, if there is anyone else i would rly appreciate more feedback

I think for me, i was stuck on the door in the last spawn that ramps up to the final point....im not sure how to describe it lol

No amount of windows or other advantages really stops spam into a single spawn exit.  It's just too easy to get nades and other stuff into a single general area.

Looking back, I probably should have recorded a demo, if you want more testing done watching a demo can do wonders in trying to connect any criticism to what is actually happening in the map.

One thing I also think you should do is on blue's forward spawn with the last point, extend the spawn room all the way out to the doors, so that way if I walk back in to change classes, I don't accidentally kill myself

about spam near first spawn, as i said there is a lower exit there, you can see it on the picture (surrounded by blue concrete)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1045640/heavenbeta/b2_07.jpg

About stucking in the door..well..maybe i got what door you are talking bout, ill check it out, thanks

about extension of the spawn area, thats good idea,ill do that

(03-17-2010, 01:27 PM)Hellfire link Wrote: [ -> ]The one thing ive noticed is that attackers need an engineer, as teleporter to that balcony with the window is really a credit to team

I'm pretty sure they had that.  Late in the round (about 30 seconds to go), I sapped the shit out of an SG, dispenser, and TWO teleporter exits.  They all went down and I realized that my attack on the engie was really kinda moot.

hm...so any suggestions there? increase time for attackers..or decrease cap time..or else?

while i dont have the ammount of statistic i had on b2a this version seems much more attacker friendly.

For example, b2a version ended up in 31.6% rounds won by BLU based on 20 rounds played
in b3a blu won 66.7% precent of rounds, still thats based on only 6 rounds played.

raw statistics, but i think last point is indeed captureable, its hard but hey, its the last point

Another thought I had last night as we played this.  Move the lower spawn exit from directly below the main exits to the drain pipe.  May help defeat a lot of the spawn spamming that occurs.

what spawn do you mean? Last blu one?

First blue spawn, sorry.

oh alright. I'll think bout that, thanks

anything else?How does it play overall?

Overall, I think it's pretty decent.  My other crits stand.  I think a lot of it is ppl just need to learn it.  I think its the most promising map I've seen in a long time.  Oh, also, more directional indicators.

ah, ive completely forgot to update a thread. So, here goer _rc version

CHANGELOG:

-decreased filesize from 57Mbs to 51Mb
-set B/C cap time to 35 (was 22) and RedSpawnAdj to 2 (was 0)
-set red/blu sapwnwave to 4/4 after capturing B or C (was 5/3)
-set cp A cap time to 12(was 10)
-set max timer length to 419sec (was 480sec)
-modified area outside B, blu side
-modified point C to make it more smooth
-modified point B, it now has covered exit from red side
-modified redspawn #2 spawn
-added "outdoor" B-C passage for red
-added a hole in the roof above point A, made roof accessible
-much changed "indoor" B-C passage
-removed D
-removed bluspawn #3
-removed stairs that let red team to B balcony
-fixed an issue that let blu in red spawn #1
-fixed issue that did let red out of redspawn #1 after its disabled
-fixed rare door issue at point B
-fixed a rare timer issue after captuing A
-fixed several areaportal issues
-fixed several bad fade distances
-fixed several texture issues
-fixed several shadow issues on props
-fixed hologram at point C not becoming blue after caturing
-fixed some clipping issues on the bridges

DOWNLOAD LINKS:

[URL=http://"http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=2849"]TF2M .bz2[/URL]
[URL=http://"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1045640/heaven%20rc/cp_heaven_rc.7z"]Dropbox .7z[/URL]
[URL=http://"http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1045640/heaven%20rc/cp_heaven_rc.bsp.bz2"]Dropbox .bz2[/URL]
[URL=http://"http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/134710"]FPSB .7z[/URL]