Randomize Tank Spawn Plugin

[Blues]

[quote author=Scary Womanizing Pig Mask link=topic=2330.msg67822#msg67822 date=1235086053]
Since when does Versus mode need to be balanced? The whole reason Valve didn't make it the default was because it proved impossible to make fair. That's the point though, it's a fun, unserious mode.

That's my gripe. I don't mind the random mess. What bugs me is that their attempts to "balance" versus are making the mode just another by the numbers team based fps with fewer and fewer surprises.
[/quote]
Personally I liked the tank fix, only because I seemed to be a "tank at spawn for opposing team" magnet. Other than that, there's no need to do anything to the vs mode, it's fine as is.

[chronomaster]

The point of having consistent Infected spawns was to give the losing team an edge by allowing them to plan out distractions/attacks to try to get the edge up via Witch/Tank. Knowing that information ahead of time (if you're lucky to survive to those points the first time around) is crucial for Smokers and Boomers.

That said, it doesn't work out for the Tank as much as it does the Witch. Since most people just toss a Molotov and sit back while the Tank burns to death (effectively making the great equalizer not so equalizing), the Tank does need a random, or at least for the losing team, more imminent spawn.

This is if, of course, we're talking about balance in L4D, which is clearly a ludicrous idea.

[KorJax]

Personally my only real gripe with versus L4D is to "lengthen" the range of the toung a tad OR to make it so the recharge time after an attack is much much shorter.  30seconds-1minute between each grab attack does nothing but cripple the smoker at being effective.  I'm pretty sure AI smokers can attack as many times as they want can't they within a short period of time?

The smoker's already a class that's rather useless to a team who's played more than just one game, unless you get lucky and find yourself snagging someone who decided to lag behind.  Especially considering the 'toung grab' damage is only about 2HP/s or so.  The damage is fine... assuming if the smoker could actually attack more than once every 30 seconds.

They balanced the smoker as if it was overpowered, when it really wasn't.  Especailly since you can just "tap" the person getting dragged to completely and totally stop a smoker from doing anything for another 30 seconds.

[Wedge]

The main problem with VS is it's too predictable and boring.  They need to come up with more chaotic things to happen to the survivors.  Right now it's just Witch (usually irrelevant) Tank at predetermined point (with the right weapons, irrelevant) and then the same few areas on a map where infected always attack to try and win.  I want Tanks with a limited but selectable by player spawning, multiple witches, and random severe hordes outside of the "call the horde" points (which are stupid anyways, since standing still and killing things as survivors is rarely a problem, especially where these points are located).  And really adding new obstacles in general should be in the future.  If they can come up with a larger variety of "problems" for the survivors to run into, then they can put variety back into VS and still keep it relatively balanced.  As it is right now, the only major thing to worry and prepare for is a Tank spawn really.

[CaffeinePowered]

Well, if you really want to make thigns harder, I can put a plugin that lets you vote to change the difficulty on versus


Expert Versus anyone?

[Versus]

Advanced Versus would be nice. Expert Versus...probably no one will survive, unless the infected team is terrible

[KorJax]

VS isn't that predictable and boring to me.

You're argument basically can apply to any multiplayer game in existance that is focused on a goal (i.e. people always setting up turrets in the same spot near a cap point in TF2, etc).

I wouldn't mind an advanced versus.  But really, they just got to make the infected team more effective without always needing a tank to actually garuntee a win.

For example, maybe making it so in VS mode you can't melee people to stop a smoker pull.  Or making it so tank spawns are more random, and maybe even having it so there is a "spawning" mode for tanks/witches much in the same way as the standard infected spawn.

The other stuff I'm fine with.  Hey, I like vs mode how it is for the most part. 

Except for cruschendo events.  Mostly because all everyone does during those is corner camp instead of actually using teamwork.  I say that make it so survivors are solid while they melee or fire or maybe even make it so if two survivors (or more ) clip in each other for more than 2 seconds, you get pushed off and become solid or something.

[KarthXLR]

Well, if you really want to make thigns harder, I can put a plugin that lets you vote to change the difficulty on versus


Expert Versus anyone?

NO THANK YOU.

[Blues]

Well, if you really want to make thigns harder, I can put a plugin that lets you vote to change the difficulty on versus


Expert Versus anyone?

If you did this, I would actually make it a point to play on the brbu server. I am tired of there being no real challenge for the survivors unless the infected team knows those few perfect spawn types/locations that fuck the survivors up hard. I am also tired of doing massive amounts of work, taking 3 or all 4 of them down to within a few hits of dead, some struggling on the black and white, and them stumbling across a medicine cabinet with 4 full health packs in it.

Advanced would be absolutely wonderful, and expert would be fun as shit for a challenge.

[KorJax]

[quote author=Caffeine link=topic=2330.msg68010#msg68010 date=1235180212]
Well, if you really want to make thigns harder, I can put a plugin that lets you vote to change the difficulty on versus


Expert Versus anyone?

If you did this, I would actually make it a point to play on the brbu server. I am tired of there being no real challenge for the survivors unless the infected team knows those few perfect spawn types/locations that fuck the survivors up hard. I am also tired of doing massive amounts of work, taking 3 or all 4 of them down to within a few hits of dead, some struggling on the black and white, and them stumbling across a medicine cabinet with 4 full health packs in it.

Advanced would be absolutely wonderful, and expert would be fun as shit for a challenge.
[/quote]

Expert might be overkill.  Half of the time, I find myself on expert campaigns barely making it out alive, if even that.

Hell I only play the campaigns on expert and I've only been able to actually survive one non-vs campaign, and that's with closet respawning.  It's not so bad on the earlier levels but getting ahead to the 4th or 5th level or even then 3rd, you have to have a really really good team to survive against the AI.  Putting a human controlled element into that would make it near impossible, especailly since that "Health pack everywhere" stuff doesn't happen on advanced/expert.

I think it's good that it'll be map based because the finalies might be impossibly hard on advanced/expert, considering when the tank spawns nothing is more satisfying than punting survivors off the roof in No Mercy (and it always happens, unless I spawn in a bad location or the surivors are particularly good at running away from me with the rest of my team doing jack shit).

[CaffeinePowered]

Advanced was actually quite balanced IMO, the boss infected don't get much of a damage buff (tank certainly does not), but normal infected do 5 instead of a measly 2

We didn't notice any huge difference in the number of health/ammo drops.

[Wedge]

Advanced was actually quite balanced IMO, the boss infected don't get much of a damage buff (tank certainly does not), but normal infected do 5 instead of a measly 2

We didn't notice any huge difference in the number of health/ammo drops.

Which is precisely why the game defaults to that difficulty for VS.  The point is to have the infected be the ones killing survivors, not AI.  Of course they can't seem to balance that part for crap, so w'ever.

[CaffeinePowered]

[quote author=Caffeine link=topic=2330.msg68145#msg68145 date=1235237358]
Advanced was actually quite balanced IMO, the boss infected don't get much of a damage buff (tank certainly does not), but normal infected do 5 instead of a measly 2

We didn't notice any huge difference in the number of health/ammo drops.

Which is precisely why the game defaults to that difficulty for VS.  The point is to have the infected be the ones killing survivors, not AI.  Of course they can't seem to balance that part for crap, so w'ever.

[/quote]

Actually it makes the boomer much more effective and you need to time attacks with hordes better, no infected team ever kills on its own, you need the AI support to win properly imo

[Eschatos]

I think a versus mode with a single person as the director would be awesome.  Think Zombie Master, but better.

[CaffeinePowered]

I think a versus mode with a single person as the director would be awesome.  Think Zombie Master, but better.

Theres a plugin for that too, but I think it does it on coop

[ScottyGrayskull]

The main problem with VS is it's too predictable and boring.  They need to come up with more chaotic things to happen to the survivors.

They had that, then they "fixed" it.

[ScottyGrayskull]

Except for cruschendo events.  Mostly because all everyone does during those is corner camp instead of actually using teamwork.  I say that make it so survivors are solid while they melee or fire or maybe even make it so if two survivors (or more ) clip in each other for more than 2 seconds, you get pushed off and become solid or something.

Actually... that gives me an idea...

Melee can damage teammates. Maybe not in campaign (although it would spice it up a lot), but definitely in versus. It wouldn't happen in some situations like when smokered or huntered or incapped, but otherwise it would.

Thoughts?

[ScottyGrayskull]

Actually it makes the boomer much more effective and you need to time attacks with hordes better, no infected team ever kills on its own, you need the AI support to win properly imo

Oh, that'd be nice. As is Boomer is useless most of the time since they can just get into a huddle or corner and melee. Don't get me wrong, when he's effective he's really effective, but that's maybe 5% of the time.

[Aerox]

Oh, that'd be nice. As is Boomer is useless most of the time since they can just get into a huddle or corner and melee. Don't get me wrong, when he's effective he's really effective, but that's maybe 5% of the time.

If you are using the boomer for horde spawn instead of for blinding/disorienting and picking people off, you're doing it wrong.

[Blues]

[quote author=KorJax link=topic=2330.msg68014#msg68014 date=1235182267]
Except for cruschendo events.  Mostly because all everyone does during those is corner camp instead of actually using teamwork.  I say that make it so survivors are solid while they melee or fire or maybe even make it so if two survivors (or more ) clip in each other for more than 2 seconds, you get pushed off and become solid or something.

Actually... that gives me an idea...

Melee can damage teammates. Maybe not in campaign (although it would spice it up a lot), but definitely in versus. It wouldn't happen in some situations like when smokered or huntered or incapped, but otherwise it would.

Thoughts?
[/quote]
Not a bad idea at all actually. This could help prevent survivors from corner hugging. Simply make each melee attack do one damage to teammates. Melee is still a completely effective way to get a smoker tongue off, or help clear out zombies, because you're only doing one damage. One the other hand, one damage per swing would add up nicely with all four doing it over and over shoved in a corner.